Rainbo’s Tonya Papanikolov on Building a Leading Functional Mushroom Brand Through Mind Body Medicine and Kundalini Yoga Practice

Tonya Papanikolov, founder and CEO of Rainbo, shares her journey building one of the leading functional mushroom companies while maintaining deep spiritual practices. In this conversation, she explains the science behind medicinal mushrooms like Lion’s Mane for brain health and Reishi for stress management, how she got Rainbo into major retailers like Whole Foods, and why her Kundalini yoga practice became essential for entrepreneurial success.

Tonya also discusses working with her husband Simon, raising capital from mission-aligned investors, and how mind-body medicine principles guide both her product formulation and business strategy. Here’s our full conversation.

Mark MacLeod:

In this episode, I sit down with Tonya Papanikolov, founder of Rainbo. Rainbo is a leading brand for functional mushrooms. You may have heard that mushrooms have many, many health benefits. And Tonya walks us through this, and about the founder problem fit.

Tonya was a healer. She studied mind-body medicine. She’s a Kundalini Yoga teacher. She has a deep, lived knowledge of the benefits that mushrooms bring.

So in this episode, we walk you through that if you were ever curious about functional mushrooms and how they could enhance your life. She walks us through that.

Obviously, we walk through the Rainbo journey, building a direct-to-consumer business, getting into big channels like Whole Foods, and building a company with her husband. Tonya is obviously a deeply spiritual person. And so we talk about that. We talk about the practices that all CEOs can benefit from, whether they’re spiritual or not. We talk about how to balance ambition, drive, and material success with spirituality.

And both of us are Kundalini Yoga teachers. So, of course, we had a little bit of propaganda at the end about the benefits of Kundalini. And I can tell you in all seriousness that the trajectory of my career and my life was 100% tied to me going deeper in the Kundalini Yoga practice. I really, really enjoyed this episode. I wish it was longer. It’s probably a different one than what you’re used to. I really hope you enjoy it.

Welcome to The Startup CEO Show. It’s a true pleasure to have you here. How are you doing today?

Tonya Papanikolov:

Thank you so much, Mark. It is a pleasure to chat with you. And I am doing super today. How are you?

Mark MacLeod:

I’m really good. Oh, by the way, we have a co-host today.

Tonya Papanikolov:

Oh, my goodness, this is baby?

Mark MacLeod:

This is baby. And she…

Tonya Papanikolov:

Is it a new baby?

Mark MacLeod:

No, no, she’s four years old. When my wife’s not around, she’s on my lap. So she’s a co-host. She probably won’t ask a lot of questions, but she may nod her head from time to time.

Tonya Papanikolov:

She’s a real lap dog. Wow, that’s so sweet. You know, this morning I woke up, and maybe it was in my meditation, and I was like, start looking for a dog. Like, let’s start looking for a dog. Now I think it’s a good time.

Mark MacLeod:

I love humans, but I really love dogs.

Tonya Papanikolov:

I only know my love for dogs through other owners. And it’s a lot. So I actually can’t imagine how deep it will go.

Mark MacLeod:

Yeah. I mean, the worst thing about pets is there’s a 90% chance you will bury them. But they bring you so much love and create so much love that it’s worth the pain.

Tonya Papanikolov:

Yeah. That’s fair.

Mark MacLeod:

So you and I first met through our mutual friend Matt Gray at his Mastermind, and he had the foresight to put a cigarette at lunch because you’re a Kundalini Yoga teacher and I was in the process of becoming a Kundalini Yoga teacher. And again, in the no-coincidences department, that wasn’t a coincidence, obviously. And we’re recording this on Guru Purnima. So kind of a great day to honor our gurus and teachers.

Tonya Papanikolov:

And it’s a full moon. I don’t even know if I knew that when I booked. But of course, no coincidences.

Mark MacLeod:

No coincidences. So, of course, we’re going to have to talk a little bit about Kundalini. And I promise for folks listening who have never heard or have heard and think it’s weird, I can a hundred percent actually correlate the progress of my career to the depth of my Kundalini practice and just the insight, intuition, energy, and gratitude that it unlocked for me.

Tonya Papanikolov:

Me too. Me too, a hundred percent.

Mark MacLeod:

So, first of all, for folks who don’t know, could you tell us just a little bit about yourself and Rainbo and what Rainbo is?

Tonya Papanikolov:

Yeah. So, I’m so excited to chat with you today, but. So, my name is Tonya. I am, I guess, a lot of things. You know, I find this question difficult to really define oneself, but I guess it’s helpful to speak to why I do the things I do. But I’m a holistic nutritionist, the founder and CEO of Rainbo, which is a company I birthed eight years ago and launched six.

In this timeframe, it’s actually funny, the reason I was a couple of minutes late to our podcast was because I had a call with an astrologer because we’re trying to find a date for our product launch, and it’s Mercury. Yeah. And I was like, all the planets are going retrograde. What are we going to do? Anyways, I digress a bit.

So, I’ve been pouring so much of my time, energy, and years into building my business Rainbo, and that’s been a beautiful, wild journey. I also teach Kundalini, host retreats, and I’d say that’s kind of the gist of it at the moment.

I’m doing my master’s as well, which is another pretty big undertaking. And I guess I’m just very passionate about learning and utilizing natural healing and technologies and sharing that with people. And really, it was through my own healing journey that this whole path even came to fruition. And as I started to unlock certain keys, it’s just kind of in my nature to share that and really sing that from the rooftops because there’s been such profound results.

And there are so many, so many other kinds of reasons for things, but ultimately, I feel very committed to really elevating humanity and helping us achieve, be in our best state, feel our best. And I think as I’ve moved through life, I’ve experienced firsthand the way that through having a sensitive system, the way that the food didn’t work for me, the corporate system didn’t work for me.

The way of just accepting stress didn’t work for me. The medical system was not something that I would just be a bystander to; I really needed to be an active participant in that. And so, since I was 16 years old, I’ve really been on this journey. So, yeah, it’s been a beautiful path.

Mark MacLeod:

That’s amazing. And so you began as a healer, you still are a healer, but you’ve birthed this company along the way. And I had the CEO of Jnapp on the podcast last year, and it was the same thing. She was starting a physio clinic and needed some software to run it, and now she has a software company worth a billion dollars, which is pretty wild.

Tonya Papanikolov:

Wow, that is so wild. That’s incredible. You know, it was really tough. The first couple of years of identity were really difficult for me because I was like, I can no longer express this part of me that feels very innate, because I was learning business.

And I didn’t have any business skills at that point, other than all of the amazing entrepreneurial traits that it takes, and the rest you can really just learn. But, yeah, it was interesting. There have been a lot of identity shifts that have been required, and I think the ease of knowing that I can be more than one and shift between different identities.

Mark MacLeod:

I mean, something I tell my CEOs all the time is to lean into your superpowers. Be your true, authentic self. Don’t put on what you think this stereotypical image of a CEO is. Don’t put on this fake identity, right? And the CEOs who go all the way are the ones who do that.

And the example I bring up all the time is Tobi from Shopify, right? We have this stereotype of a tech CEO, right? So, unfortunately, male, because it’s male-dominated, so it’s not exclusive, but as a stereotype, tall, broad-shouldered, charismatic, rainmaker. Tobi’s male, but he’s not these things. He’s painfully introverted, but he has deep superpowers in technology and product, and he’s leaned into that.

And then he’s built a team around him to do the other stuff, which is why his right-hand, Harley, is the one who does the quarterly earnings, CNBC stuff. And so I love that and tell my CEOs all the time, the thing that doesn’t feel like work, where you’re just in flow, that should be your role, should design the company, starting with the leadership team, but design the company around leveraging that and having you in that state.

Tonya Papanikolov:

Oh, I love to hear that so much because it’s been such an interesting journey and process, and I don’t know if other people listening or any of your other CEOs can resonate, but such a challenging journey for me to really try to separate that aspect of where is my zone of genius with who do I feel like I need to be? And honestly, that has been just such a hard thing.

Like, the guilt, the oh my gosh, I’m not these things. I don’t look like that version of a CEO, like, whoa, whoa. That person has those skills. Like, do I need to have all those? I don’t. But I have this. So, the whole journey to having a company brings up so much in any role. Like, no matter what, if you’re the founder or working at a company, there are structures, and it’s such an internal journey of constantly being aware of where things are showing up.

Mark MacLeod:

I think building a company, especially a high-growth company, which by the way is never a straight line up and to the right, is actually just a personal development exercise. The biggest growth exercise you could go through.

Tonya Papanikolov:

A hundred percent, yeah.

Mark MacLeod:

Now, my first exposure to Rainbo as a product was when we were sitting in a round table in Mexico City, and I was a little bit jet lagged, and you just pulled out a tincture, and 20 minutes later, I felt amazing. So it definitely works. Are all of your products mushroom-based, or are there other raw ingredients as well?

Tonya Papanikolov:

No, all of our products are mushroom-based. And yeah, I mean Rainbo through and through is a mushroom company. That is the whole inspiration and the journey, and the vision that I had was all about mushrooms. And so, even our future products, we have two products coming out. So, we have two products launching, and those are both going to be mushroom-based.

But yes, all product SKUs are filled with mushrooms. And in our new products, we have some adaptogens coming in too. So, some herbals are coming in.

Mark MacLeod:

Now, I didn’t know this about you until I was kind of putting together some topics, but you’re the first person I’ve ever encountered who has a degree in mind-body medicine. So, please tell us about that. I find this fascinating.

Tonya Papanikolov:

So, I’m doing my master’s, my master of Science in mind-body medicine. But I have my undergrad, my bachelor of science is in nutrition and nutraceutical sciences. Nutraceuticals is the field of natural health products, and that’s also apparently so rare. I talked to some people, and they’re like, you have a degree in nutraceuticals? Like nobody in CPG, nobody in this space actually has that.

And I remember when I graduated university, I was like, there was a job offering at Nestle, and I was like, what am I going to do with nutraceuticals? Like, what have I done? So, it’s really cool to see that all come kind of full circle.

But the Mind Body Medicine piece is really a fascinating, relatively new area of study and science where we’re essentially finding the scientific correlates between how the mind directs the body. And of course, the spirit is like, I prefer to have it called mind-body-spirit medicine, but it’s kind of an aspect of that as well.

And so, we study all sorts of things. I mean, the majority of the scientifically-proven practices are what we know, yoga, meditation, hypnotherapy, and all different sorts of psychological studies. There’s a lot of transpersonal study. I’m really interested in the consciousness aspect of it.

I am potentially, depending on time levels, family, and things of that nature, there’s a consciousness PhD that I’m interested in pursuing next. And that is non-trivial. But I think it’s really the mushrooms, also partially kundalini, partially my experience as a practitioner in holistic nutrition and working one-on-one with people, and really understanding when I’m interacting with somebody and when I’m working with somebody, there’s just so much happening from a subconscious and from their mind.

And so that was where I was like, I’m not just working with a body here. There is a whole person that needs to be on board from a mental perspective to really heal. And I really love those subtle realms and subtle aspects. And so the mind is just this space of infinite curiosity for me because I really think it’s the unlock for our potential, and so many aspects of our beliefs, the subconscious, the collective, ideas, and creativity.

So, it kind of spans all of these areas, the nervous system, all these areas that I’m extremely passionate about. And really, mushrooms have also unlocked for me in this amazing way, which was a part of why I started Rainbo, which was really the benefits I started to receive from high-dosing Reishi mushroom.

Mark MacLeod:

I’m curious, just as a small tangent, what you’ve studied here with mind-body medicine, I assume that’s using a kind of allopathic Western medicine approach, but does it reinforce ayurvedic principles? Is it kind of saying the same thing at the end of the day?

Tonya Papanikolov:

I mean, yeah, I guess there it is taking a western allopathic approach to the scientific rigor that some of these tests need to be, or studies in clinical trials need to go through. But there is a surprising amount of data from places like India, Japan, China, and studies from those traditional systems as well, which was really surprising to see.

And so, a lot of it is the scientific validation of or understanding of the neural correlates of something like meditation or whatever it might be, creativity, or energy medicine. So, a surprising amount of studies in their background research will pay homage to the cultures where this is coming from.

I mean, I haven’t really gotten into TCM specifically, that deep into acupuncture or anything like that, but I would imagine the body of evidence for something like that, too, is quite large. But the way mind-body medicine is getting incorporated into the West is largely through functional approaches and more holistic care.

But there are various functional med practitioners, integrative health clinics, and the broader field of integrative medicine, where a client or a patient will go to a clinic, and at that clinic, there are all of your doctors, and you have really more of a support team available.

Mark MacLeod:

Okay. So there are many layers to the onion. So, let’s talk about mushrooms. You know, being a total layperson, I have these benign mushrooms that I cook with and these magical mushrooms that I keep, but there’s something in the middle that are mushrooms that have these properties. And so, give us a little mushroom 101 for folks who know absolutely nothing about this.

Tonya Papanikolov:

Okay, amazing. So, yes, I mean, you hit it spot on. There are culinary mushrooms, which have amazing nutritional value and are so great. I think there’s a study that just came out from China showing that consuming Shiitake three times a week reduces cancer levels. We can link the study and give the exact percentage, and another study that just came out about consuming the fiber from mushrooms actually helps to break down forever chemicals and microplastics in the body, because there are mushrooms in the world that actually break down plastics, and so tons of benefits from simply just eating the mushrooms.

So, those are our culinary mushrooms. There’s another class of medicinal mushrooms, which is what we sell at Rainbo. And some of them are culinary medicinals like Shiitake and lion’s mane. And then others you’d not be able to eat them, and include things like reefs and chaga cordyceps.

There are tons, agarikon, royal sun, all sorts of beautiful names, and wild kinds of species of mushrooms. And those are the class of mushrooms that have incredible benefits to the body and to the immune system at large. But then every mushroom has its own kind of superpower and area within the body that it is really supporting.

What’s amazing is that humans are more closely related to mushrooms than we are to plants. And so, within our body, when we consume a mushroom, we have receptors in our intestines for these mushrooms and for the beta-glucans. And so, with all mushrooms, the reason we need to cook the mushrooms is because all of the benefits are stored behind, I guess, the cell wall, which is this chitinous cell wall that needs to be broken down in order to access the nutrients. And that’s what cooking will break that down.

And so, I do recommend always cooking your mushrooms, and then for the extracts for any of the medicinals, we have a process of basically decocting or extracting the mushrooms in water and alcohol to break down those layers, access all the amazing health-promoting benefits, and then either create that into an extract or a powder.

I mean, yeah, we can go into each specific mushroom, but they have truly amazing qualities. And whenever I’m giving somebody a little bit of a 101, I always like to go back to where they came from because there’s incredible Western scientific knowledge that’s coming out about these mushrooms. Of particular interest is Lion’s Mane because of its neuroprotective properties.

So, there are pharmaceutical companies that are studying it for dementia, Alzheimer’s, and it’s such an amazing mushroom and it’s one of these small molecules that has the ability to pass the blood-brain barrier which some pharmaceuticals can’t even do that because the body is so brilliant and it won’t let certain things access the brain.

And so, there are very few natural ingredients that can actually pass the blood-brain barrier. And so, Lion’s Mane is this kind of amazing and really deserves the hype it’s getting in terms of how supportive it is to brain health, memory, focus, and concentration for the elderly.

Like, I encourage everybody to get their parents on it. And yeah, just amazing studies throwing out that it can reverse the effects of Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s, and prevent neurodegenerative conditions.

Mark MacLeod:

Placing an order right after this podcast. Unfortunately, my mother has dementia.

Tonya Papanikolov:

I’m sorry. Yeah, it’s so common. And so, the five main mushrooms are Lion’s Mane, which I just mentioned, Reishi, which is this mushroom of spiritual potency. This is why I love using some of the language from Asian cultures to describe this, which is really the home place of mushroom medicine and traditional medicine, and there are festivals and statues that are revering mushrooms in China, and all sorts of beautiful things that happen there.

And also vocabulary and language that we don’t have in the West, around what that really means to have any herb or mushroom increase the spirit of an individual, or have a protective quality to the mind. And so, Reishi does that through its nervous system balance and through helping to kind of calm the effects of stress and of cortisol. And so it does that by kind of the HPA axis, which is this axis that kind of starts in the brain.

The upper brain center is similar to what we do in Kundalini yoga, which is really trying to support the glandular system. And so the upper brain, the pituitary hypothalamus, they are basically starting to control. They have this feedback loop with the adrenals. And so it’s a beautiful way that you can actually start to balance the whole body.

So, I think everybody on this planet needs Reishi. It’s extremely safe. It’s a known adaptogen. And my favorite mushroom, that kind of started this whole thing. And then there’s Chaga. I won’t give you as long of descriptions, but Chaga is an amazing antioxidant. Cordyceps is an awesome energizing mushroom. And then Turkey Tail is another incredible mushroom for oxidative stress and other cancers and things like that.

Mark MacLeod:

That’s amazing. So, I will say I knew none of this you’re answering, which tells me that perhaps the market at large is ignorant of the benefits. Is that true? And if so, how do you overcome it?

Tonya Papanikolov:

I think we’re starting to scratch the surface. It seems that 2020 really started this mushroom, fungal renaissance. And that was through Paul Stamets’s work and Michael Poland’s book “How to Change Your Mind.” And really, all of these mushroom companies coming out and these things. We launched before that, and I always think there’s something in the zeitgeist that is moving culture and minds and all these things forward.

But, yeah, I think there’s been a huge push and success within the past five years to really make mushrooms more mainstream. But I don’t think there’s such a depth to them that I think we’re still at, like, mass penetration? I don’t know yet. But I think the solution to that is really what we’ve been trying to do, which is just educate and really champion this intelligent network, which I think that is really part of what struck me was having these feelings that when I would go into nature before I knew any of this stuff, that there was a sentience and some organizing principle of a forest and some level of wow, I feel really good here.

And without even knowing that I’m walking past plants that do a myriad of healing benefits, just from taking a quick walk down past a couple of bushes. And so I think when I started to really understand this and learn herbal medicine and recognize that there’s literally an organism that is beneath my feet that can sense my presence, and that is communicating, helping the trees to communicate, and helping predators, other plants, let somebody know that there’s somebody coming, it’s like being on a mushroom trip. You just actually realize that it is actually all connected, and I am just one piece of this Charlotte’s web of life on earth.

Mark MacLeod:

So fascinating. I love it. I want to keep going on Rainbo the company for maybe a couple more minutes, because the question I really want to ask is more spiritual. So, today you sell primarily direct-to-consumer online, but I understand you recently got into Whole Foods. And so, how has that been, pros and cons of those big channel relationships? We’d love to learn about that.

Tonya Papanikolov:

Yeah. So honestly, I don’t think there are any cons, truly. I mean, the cons that I could think of are just being prepared from an inventory perspective, managing cash flow, things like that. I mean, we grew pretty well. We grew organically for the first few years, and we expanded to over 200 independent stores across Canada and the U.S., and now I think we’re over 400. And that’s largely through independent chains.

Last year, we got into Whole Foods, and we started working with Purity, a distribution company in Canada. And they’ve been really helping to open doors for us. And I mean, Whole Foods is such an amazing channel for us.

We have yet to really get into the mass US Market in terms of the Sprouts or Whole Foods chains there, and we’re hoping to do that, but it’s also just making sure we’re ready to support that, especially. And we’ll probably start in smaller markets like SoCal or just specific states or specific sides of the country.

But I’d say the biggest considerations are just like. And the biggest worries for me were what is this going to mean to cash flow, and how do we plan for that, and just staying in stock.

Mark MacLeod:

There’s a power imbalance when you’re negotiating with folks like that?

Tonya Papanikolov:

I mean, yes, anytime you bring distributors into conversations or sales brokers, there’s really big cuts. And I mean, then you can also get into the free fill situation, too, where there are a lot of really big chains that will have hundreds of chains and require the first order to have a free fill. So that’s like, anywhere from however much you can negotiate. But, there are listing fees, you have to spend six free products to every store.

So there’s a pretty big upfront investment when you’re thinking about getting into some bigger chains. And some of that’s negotiable, and some of it’s just not. So, we have taken a pretty intentional and slow approach to at least our B2B expansion, which is necessary because it is hard to scale in every sales channel at the same time.

Mark MacLeod:

Yeah, for sure. I mean, generally speaking. If you try to do a whole bunch of things, you’re going to be an inch thick and a mile wide, which is not a recipe for going fast. Focus tends to be faster. That’s fascinating. Now, you run your company with Simon, who is your husband. That could be a podcast in and of itself, and I know you did one, which I listened to and loved it, but yeah, just tell us about that experience.

Tonya Papanikolov:

Okay, well, we’re new to it. I mean, Simon is an entrepreneur, and he’s got such an amazingly opposite skill set to mine in the sense that he’s an engineer and he was in fintech and has raised a ton of money for his company. And he’s been through it. He knows the language to speak in terms of when you’re in those kinds of boardrooms and settings. So he’s helped with capital raising and with all sorts of conversations in rooms where I was like, what the f*ck?

Like, just trying to be like, wow, okay, I gotta learn a lot of things. So, when I think about, like, if I ever had a co-founder, he’s just the person, like, when you have a business for seven years, every single conversation, every challenge, he’s been by my side. And so in some ways, I’ve always said, if I had a co-founder, it would be Simon, because he’s just seen it all.

And it’s so amazing to have the level of radical candor and let somebody see you in your wild, crazy state before you develop the polished response. Like, to really let somebody see that side of you is a blessing because I think being a solo founder, if I didn’t have that would be kind of lonely, and he’s very grounded and practical, which I am most of the time.

It’s also such a journey to not have emotions in your business. But anyway, so about last year, he started to come in a bit of a bigger way. He stepped away from his company that he was building for many years. And so we’ve been, yeah, figuring out what his role is and learning through a lot of things, figuring out boundaries just in general, you know.

Mark MacLeod:

Like, I was going to ask about boundaries. Do you be like, okay, now we’re not execs…

Tonya Papanikolov:

I mean, just last night we were like we had to really process the whole thing because we were just working over dinner. Like, we had something to do and we were working over dinner, and so we just got into this whole kind of argument. Then we hugged, made up, and we were like, okay, great. This is a learning for us that we’re not gonna book a session for ourselves. Of course, you’re gonna work whenever you need to, but it wasn’t an emergency last night.

And it was just like, we need to book our time in the day because if we keep sacrificing any of our couple time or intimate time or whatever it is, that’s just gonna erode the sacredness of this. And now that we are working together, we really need to work harder to maintain those times together. So, so many learnings, so many amazing benefits, but definitely introducing a new set of challenges that we’re working through.

Mark MacLeod:

This is not a question I get to ask many CEOs, so I’m glad I can ask you. So, if Rainbo is your company, you’re in charge and so there’s a certain male energy that you’re going to bring to that role, and I’m wondering how you manage polarities, because a lot of time where you want Simon to bring that energy.

Tonya Papanikolov:

Honestly, sometimes I want to encourage more people to make decisions within the company. I have tried. Maybe I haven’t done as good of a job as I could have, but it’s a funny thing where I also like the control and I have specifics around things, and so it’s a really interesting thing. Delegation has been very hard for me. It’s getting easier now because it’s just more of a requirement.

But when it comes to certain areas of the business, where we have been in the past month has been really starting a new chapter of Rainbo and setting clear scorecards and expectations, and realignment of here’s your lane, here’s my lane, here’s this lane. And like, really just getting radically clear because we’re just spread thin in some areas and all that good stuff.

But I’m actively trying right now, I guess, to answer the question, to give him areas where I want him to just make decisions and not come to me. And we’re just trying to have really open communication. So, I guess the answer is that it’s not always super clear cut, and it’s nuanced, and I like control, and I’m also excited to pass certain things off and be clearer about what that looks like.

Mark MacLeod:

The key here is explicit communication, right? Not shoving stuff under the rug, not having expectations in your head that haven’t been communicated in a dialogue.

Tonya Papanikolov:

Totally. And I really tried to practice creating a pause, a moment of space between stimulus and response, and get in that space, ask myself, am I the best person to make this decision? Can I delegate this? And even if I can do it really fast right now, can I still delegate it and empower somebody else, or encourage them?

That has been super helpful because I think when you’re trying to move somewhat faster, it’s kind of like you just realize, oh, I can get this done so quickly, so I’m just going to do it. And so there’s kind of a moment of thoughtfulness, or if I’m feeling frustrated, just getting clear about, okay, am I getting frustrated because this doesn’t belong to me, or what is the real reason here?

Mark MacLeod:

I love it. You mentioned Simon was involved in fundraising. I wasn’t sure whether you’d raise money. Have you raised mainly angel money so far, or…?

Tonya Papanikolov:

Yeah, angel money. One VC, actually, and the rest angels.

Mark MacLeod:

I’m curious, has there been any tension between the objectives of investors? They might be mission aligned and investing for reasons beyond money, but generally speaking, if I invest in an illiquid startup, it’s because I want a return that compensates me for my risk. So I’m just curious, has there been any tension where they’re pushing you to think bigger, cut corners, do things that you might not want to do?

Tonya Papanikolov:

Honestly, not right now. I think it’s largely because I’ve been so selective in the process of wanting the right mission-aligned partners. And they’re also very hands-off. And if they’re coming to us, they’re like, how can we help?

And so, it’s not to say that we might not go that route at the next stage and have that pressure, and we’re open to that. But at this stage, honestly, there haven’t been uncomfortable conversations. We’ve been in a good state as a business, too, in terms of not always growing as fast as we can. Sometimes it’s like 700% growth, and other times it’s a lot slower.

So, it’s interesting now to have been it for six years and really see that there have been different cycles and stages, and you know, we’re excited to enter the new one with this new product that’s coming out, or that might already be out when this launches.

Mark MacLeod:

So, you’re accessing kind of an ingredient that… This is a totally ignorant question, by the way. I have no idea how you formulate products. But you’re accessing a kind of raw material that exists out in nature. So, how do you create unique differentiation versus other mushroom-based companies?

Tonya Papanikolov:

So, I guess when I first launched the business, our first product that I formulated was 11-11. And that was really just a ton of research into these 11 mushrooms and wanting to combine mushrooms together into a formula. There’s no other combination of those exact 11 mushrooms on the market. And I was just doing a lot of experimentation. If there was, I would have just bought that and taken that, but there really just wasn’t.

And so, from that perspective, there were just fewer products at that moment in time. And at this point, I mean, I think I’m one of those people, like, I like to create something based on a desire, based on a lack in the market, but I also don’t overly create something because I’m like, oh, there’s just this gap here. There’s gotta be something bigger and a motivating factor behind it.

I think it’s a little bit of both, and I might even evolve that strategy in the coming years, as there’s a different level of the brand that we’re at now versus when we initially started. And we have a base of customers that we can ask and create with as well, which is awesome. But yeah, I mean it’s really like a process of understanding, to some extent, what is on the market, if we can create something better, if there’s a gap, if it’s a taste aspect.

There’s just nothing that actually tastes good, which is why I made our latest products, because genuinely, I wouldn’t consume anything. And I’ve been trying to create this product for eight years. The idea initially came in 2016, and I was just playing around in my kitchen, and then it’s now been like a five-year journey of launching it.

But it is a combination of factors. But I try to get into a state of clarity and, I mean, I just think it’s fun to create from a more cosmic perspective. Most of my businesses have come through in a meditation in a quiet space. And tons of ideas don’t actually have any follow-through, or they aren’t things that actually happen. But I like to access a little bit of both. Like there’s like intuition and also grounded data. And I think bringing those two together is a beautiful place to kind of create from.

Mark MacLeod:

I love that. That’s a great segue into our next topic. You know, I tell my CEOs all the time, your brain wasn’t built to do eight or ten hours of Zoom calls in a row and just go from thing to thing to thing to thing. And when you look back over the course of a year, there’s a handful of really big decisions that move the needle, and you want the freshest brain, and you really want to tap into your intuition, which is far more powerful than your rational mind, to make those. And that requires space.

Now, I know I’m preaching to the converted here, but maybe you could share with folks kind of what your practice looks like and how your practice has just made you a better entrepreneur, better CEO, how it shows up.

Tonya Papanikolov:

I guess first and foremost, practice is always a work in progress because I also let my practice really slide for the first half of the year. Well, I wouldn’t say that entirely, but I tried something other than Kundalini for a few months, and I was really unstructured about it, and I just dropped a lot of other practices, and I noticed impacts on my mental health.

And so, I guess, first and foremost, I couldn’t agree with that more. And the reason I want to say that is just because it’s always an iterative, evolving process, but I have certain things that I know for sure I really need to do first thing in the morning, just like building the terrain and having healthy soil for the rest of the day.

And so, I just got back from Europe recently, and the time zone switch has been really supportive for this but I’m waking up between 5:30 and 6, going to bed between 9 and 10, and I love that so much because for me, the most magic is the morning and other people that might be the night. And it’s just about knowing what that is for you.

Mark MacLeod:

When you’re as old as me, you’ll just sleep at that time, no matter what.

Tonya Papanikolov:

I can’t wait. It’s still a challenge. Like I have been talking about wanting to do this for so long, and it’s currently happening, and I’m grateful for that. But it’s like no phone, and every day for the first six months of this year, I was checking my phone first thing in the morning. Despite all of the things, I knew better and I was doing it.

So, that habit’s currently gone, and I’m just stretching, doing my practice, Kundalini yoga. I have my Sat Kriya. I’m on 40 days of Sat Kriya, which I love to do before meetings as well. And then I have my morning pages. And today in my morning pages was the day that I had this download of all planets are in retrograde, when is the best time to launch this product? Like, oh my gosh, I need to connect with that guy who does this for companies.

Mark MacLeod:

Out of curiosity, was that Vedic astrology or regular astrology? Sorry, I interrupted…

Tonya Papanikolov:

It’s a really good question, actually. I have to check with him. Yeah, I’ll ask him. I’m not sure. But anyways, so I guess there’s this sacredness of the mornings, which is what I really try to emphasize for myself. And sometimes I’ll go on a walk or I’ll get some movement because sometimes it’s 7 am and I’m like, okay, maybe I can just do a little bit of movement right now, like walking, because I know I’m gonna be sitting in front of a computer for the next few hours.

But I’d say that time is really important. And then, nights, I am still working through. I have not historically had very good boundaries with work. There have been many, many long days. And I totally get that that’s all kind of par for the course, and there’s so much passion. But I also did spend a couple of years burned out and needed to really put some better boundaries in to take care of myself.

But yeah, I mean, it truly feels like a non-negotiable at this point. And it’s just generative for yourself and just part of the process of what I need to think about the creative output and then the creative process. And for me, the creative process requires that spaciousness to get myself into that place.

Mark MacLeod:

Sometimes I ask CEOs where are they breathing? And they have no clue. Are you aware of your breath throughout the course of the day? Do you find it rises up? It starts off in the belly, but by the time that evening comes along, it’s up in the chest?

Tonya Papanikolov:

Oh, yeah, for sure. I have to really, really be mindful of that, yeah.

Mark MacLeod:

Yeah, so important. And posture. I’m guilty of that. Sometimes I’m actually touching what I realize.

Tonya Papanikolov:

Me too. I really need to get a proper desk chair. But we moved recently, but yeah, posture is huge. Whenever I’m stressed out, I will just manifest it in my neck and shoulders, and I can’t stress that enough. And also just the movement, like yoga, and having agility of the spine is such medicine and like preventative medicine.

Mark MacLeod:

Yep, my teacher always says you’re as young or as old as your spine.

Tonya Papanikolov:

Yeah, that’s so true.

Mark MacLeod:

I’m curious to what extent your practice has infiltrated the company. Like, are there employees who are now doing these practices as well? Do you have any rituals that show up inside the company?

Tonya Papanikolov:

Yeah, it’s a good question. I mean, the first few years I would teach on full moons and new moons, and honestly, we’re not in that habit at the moment, but some of them have practiced Kundalini for their first time with me. And we will occasionally do Friday Mehdi and Chill. We’ll do our abundance meditations for five minutes or something like that.

So, it has definitely infiltrated the company. And yeah, we practice together sometimes, and I would like to do that more.

Mark MacLeod:

It’s really cool. When I was running my investment bank, I brought in the person who was running our San Francisco office. Our team was in Toronto, and we went to this place across the street from our office that was called Mind Gym. It’s no longer around, but it was like Othership, but strictly for meditating.

It was like a really cool, well-designed space where they kind of had these meditation experiences, and I think it freaked my team out, but I was just saying the same thing at the time. Like, you’re a mental athlete. You think about the context. Somebody’s been building their company for years, and now they want to sell it. You’ve got to fully show up. You’ve got to be fully present. You’ve got to tap into all of your power, and we gotta work on this mind muscle. So we’re going, we’re meditating, and they stuck with it.

Tonya Papanikolov:

Yeah, I love that. I mean, Simon, I don’t think he practiced Kundalini with me until maybe like three years into our relationship. Mostly just because I was never like, you have to try this. Eventually, I was doing my training in 2021, and I was like, hey, I’m gonna do this all day. Do you wanna do it with me? And he had such a powerful experience, and so now he loves it when I teach and we go to classes together all the time.

And so that was cool to just have him find it a little bit more naturally and not have it be like, you have to do this thing with me.

Mark MacLeod:

Yeah, I’m slowly trying to convert my wife into a Kundalini. I don’t know if I’ll ever get there. I asked her if she wanted to come to India with me for two weeks to do a Kundalini retreat. I got a very fast no, to which my next question was, well, how about this three-day retreat at Kripalu? And she’s like, oh, I’ll do three days.

Tonya Papanikolov:

And you guys did that recently, right?

Mark MacLeod:

We did it for the second time, yeah. We did the second year in a row.

Tonya Papanikolov:

Okay, amazing. So she practices Kundalini with you, but she’s not a teacher.

Mark MacLeod:

She’s not a teacher. And you know, I would say Kundalini is not her main yoga modality. It’s more Hatha-based, but she does it with me. The thing she hates is when you have to hold your sh*t out for like an hour.

Tonya Papanikolov:

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that’s fair. Kundalini arms are a real thing. Yeah.

Mark MacLeod:

I’m sure folks listening and watching know about regular yoga, so kind of vinyasa, flow, hatha, etc. But what drew you to Kundalini over that? Maybe let’s do a little sales pitch for Kundalini.

Tonya Papanikolov:

Okay. Yes, let’s do that. Well, I’ve been practicing YIWA since I was 20, 21. And then I did my hatha teacher training and was really injured at that point. And I felt like something spiritually was missing. You know, I think there’s a deeper connection through yoga that I want to find.

And in 2016, I moved to LA for a little bit, and I had never heard of Kundalini. Like, in your Hatha training, there is a paragraph about Kundalini, and I don’t remember what that paragraph said. I think it was something about a serpent at the base of my spine. And I was like, okay, that’s cool. That was as far as it went.

Mark MacLeod:

It’s funny because hatha has a tantric practice, mention a bit more, right?

Tonya Papanikolov:

Yeah. So I get to LA, and I’m feeling kind of lonely that first day, and I kind of like, okay, I’m gonna go to Whole Foods, get some groceries. And I saw on the map this place that said Institute of Yogic Science and Technology. And so that was good. I didn’t know it was a Kundalini studio, I hadn’t heard anything related to it, and I just was like, cool, I love that. That place sounds awesome, I’m just gonna go there.

And so I walked in and I took a class. And in that first class, somebody fainted. And I was like, what the hell is this? Like, I am intrigued. And it also just so happened that my roommate, whom I didn’t know, was chanting every morning. And I was like, this is weird. Like, what is she doing? I’m curious, but it definitely sounds pretty weird in there. And there were just mantras 24/7 coming from her room.

I kept going to a few more classes, and basically in my third class, I had one of the most profound out-of-body spiritual experiences with who would become my teacher. And, I mean, it just felt like it was what I was looking for in terms of the depth of connection with myself and the universe.

When you find that and when it sticks for somebody, it just does have this addictive quality where you start to get really high on life, and at the beginning, it’s not like it was daisies. Like, I had that experience, but there was also a lot of pain in that experience. It was a breakthrough moment, but with a lot of pain in my heart that led to an opening, and there was a lot of annoyance and a lot of pain in holding things.

So, it’s not like it was like, wow, this feels amazing. But it was just challenging me in a way that I was like, what’s happening in my brain, and why is my life starting to change? Why are all these things starting to happen in the ways that they are? And have always been very interested in the mind and in the subconscious.

And I guess it was just like when you’re going, very often at the beginning as well, and you’re in the gongs and the deep relaxation, my nervous system legitimately changed, which is one of the benefits of the practice. And it’s one of those practices that’s meant, it’s a yoga of experience. It’s meant to… We could talk about it, which I love to do, but then you could also experience it. That’s how it’s meant to enter somebody’s field of awareness and understanding.

Then also, all of the philosophy and the lifestyle and the teachings around it are also one of the reasons why the level of depth of the training I’d also never received. And I love that’s just in every class too. I mean, depending on who your teacher is, there’s just so much there.

And for me, I also never fell into the cult aspect of it. Like, it was always like, okay, I’m going to practice this…

Mark MacLeod:

You’ll allow yourself to wear colors other than white?

Tonya Papanikolov:

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I do have a lot of white, but I didn’t feel the need to wear a turban or convert myself; there was still a sense of balance. I went through my process of it, but I think ultimately I just know that my life needs to have balance, and I’m going to allow myself the flexibility to have a daily practice. But it doesn’t need to be that I wake up at 3:30 every day.

And so, for me, it just worked, and I made it work for me. And it wasn’t like I was going to necessarily take every single strict thing and make sure I did it that way. And so it has been like nothing but an extremely transformative practice for me. And, yeah. How did you find it?

Mark MacLeod:

It was totally by accident. I started doing yoga in my twenties in full candor because women look good in Lululemon. It was that simple. Back then, they were new. It was a thing. I’m like, wow.

Tonya Papanikolov:

That’s awesome.

Mark MacLeod:

Full candor. Doesn’t matter why you start, as long as you start. You know, I was a hard-charging, Type A Virgo CPA guy on the career, and it really calmed me down. It grounded me, it balanced me. So I started doing it more and more. And I got a little too into the Type A for a while. So I was doing Bikram all the time.

And then I was practicing a lot, so I wanted to practice every day. But I traveled a lot, so I needed a home practice. So I went on Yoga Glow as a very early subscriber to Yoga Glow. And I was doing mainly Vinyasa Flows, but then I saw Kundalini. I was just like, I have no clue what this is, but I’ll try it.

It was super weird, but I had felt a level of peace that I had never felt before. And I didn’t have a lot of peace at the time because I was just hard charging, no boundaries, fight or flight, a lot of stress. My coping mechanism for stress at the time was to drink cocktails, which, as we know, in no way relieve stress. I was traveling a lot, so yeah, it didn’t instantly click as my main practice, but it just grew and grew.

Tonya Papanikolov:

That was in your twenties, too?

Mark MacLeod:

No, later. It was probably in my mid-30s. Yeah. 2012 is when I first discovered it, I think. So I would have been 32. I got really serious about it in 2019. And not coincidentally, that was when my first marriage ended and I went super deep into the practice. And that practice had given me the tools to really come out of the other end of that thriving.

Like, I had a couple of good friends whose marriages also ended that year. And one drank his way through the pain, and the other slept his way through the pain. And I did the opposite. I stopped drinking. I journaled for most of my adult life, but I went deep. Any feeling I needed to feel, I was going to feel it. And yeah, the practice really gave me the tools to come out on the other side of that.

Tonya Papanikolov:

Wow, that’s beautiful.

Mark MacLeod:

And I began the 300-hour training in 2021 with no intention to teach, just to go deeper in the practice. And then along the way, I was just like, man, this thing’s changed my life. I’d like to share it with people. So then I went back and did the 200.

Tonya Papanikolov:

You did 300 before 200?

Mark MacLeod:

I did.

Tonya Papanikolov:

Cool. Wow. I mean, I love that. Like, we both found it by accident, and I mean, it’s a very mystical practice.

Mark MacLeod:

Yep, it is. Like, you mentioned it already, but a huge part of the appeal for me is it’s not just exercise. Yoga, of course, isn’t exercise; the purpose of yoga is to calm the fluctuations of the mind, and we could all use that. And the thing I love about Kundalini is that it just gives me these tools that go above and beyond sun salutations, like Pranayama. Such a powerful way to instantly change your state. Chanting, like, just the vibrational effect of that. And it’s hard to chant and think at the same time, and it’s impossible to chant and be in a bad mood. So, absolutely transformative to my life.

Tonya Papanikolov:

Yeah, likewise.

Mark MacLeod:

And just giving me the energy, the gratitude. And then, of course, just open me up to realize that I’m not this body. I’m not Mark the CFO or the coach or whatever, which really brings up.. I’d love to maybe let’s go into this as our last big topic, which also, by the way, could be a podcast in and of itself. But you have this awareness of the greater reality, and you’re on some level of an inner journey. How do you balance? Okay, I’m running this company, I have investors, they have expectations, I’m trying to do things, I’m trying to have ambition and success with the desire to maybe go in a cave and just meditate 16 hours a day.

Tonya Papanikolov:

Oh, yeah, that’s a really good one. What I really think about success and my definition of success is alignment with the soul and what the soul’s journey is. Having come here, I really like evolutionary astrology for this reason. I spent most of my twenties reading every single book I could on Dharma and purpose because I felt so lost. And I felt like I had a really big purpose and that I spent the first couple of years in a corporate job and eventually left that around 24, turning 25, and just went on an inner, really intense journey of developing, getting in closer contact with that Dharma.

And so, I think mostly now, I feel like there is that inner alignment that allows me to really feel such a sense of purpose. And I am doing what I am meant to do. Will that change in 10 years? Yes. But ultimately, every step I take, every time I follow the thing that doesn’t make sense, like, why am I doing my master’s right now? I don’t know. People ask me that all the time. It’s one of the first questions you and I talked about, too, and it was like I am pushing myself beyond, and there are sacrifices that are made in that process.

But I think when I really think about the groundedness of why I came here and anchoring my spirit to the physical form, it’s clear to me that I’m not here to just go and meditate in a cave. And when I feel like I want to do that, I’m actually avoiding something. And there’s probably some inner resistance to being really present with what the next level is and what I’m being asked to do.

And so, that’s kind of where I’m at with that, because I think there are definitely easier paths. Sometimes I feel in my mind that there are easier paths I could have taken. And yet I think I also just come back to being so radically, well, am I doing what I feel my soul’s meant to do? And the answer is absolutely yes.

Every year, there’s a bigger and different expression of that. And it continues to evolve, but I think that’s, to me, what the greatest level of success could look like. And I think that the monetary success and the material success follow when you find that magic place of, like, holy shit, locked and loaded and mission aligned. Like, there’s just this unstoppable force.

And I think my teacher, when I first started practicing, which was like, I don’t know, it was like hearing something for the first time, where you’re like, oh, my God. Thank God. So I thank God I heard that because it was like one of the tenets in Kundalini is that you are a lighthouse. And if you can just shine at the right degree in the right place, everything comes to you.

So, you don’t have to be an introvert or an extrovert to this, but can you build your magnetism to bring what you need to you? And I think that’s success, and what I aim for.

Mark MacLeod:

Yeah, so much. So, the style of yoga that I practice, Radiant Body Yoga. That word, radiant, it’s all about that.

Tonya Papanikolov:

Yes. Yeah. It’s so funny, my last retreat last year, I did seven days of the ten bodies. Everybody was just so obsessed with the radiant body, of course. But it’s a fantastic body. It has all of the majesty, and you still need to work on all of them, but it’s just such an attractive body, a magnetic body.

Mark MacLeod:

Yeah. I love it. And when you are there, I find so many founders, entrepreneurs who struggle. There’s this resistance, which almost brings up scarcity. Like, I’m attached to this thing that doesn’t exist, which is reinforcing the absence of the thing. Whereas if you’re actually just living in this place of radiance… Like, I don’t want to get too woo woo, but everything just sort of happens for you, and yeah, life gets easier and your business gets easier.

Tonya Papanikolov:

Yeah, it’s a bit of everything. You know, there is a lot of hard work in it, but also, I think there’s ease within that too. And for me, I just noticed one of my big resistances that was coming up for me that I’ve been journaling about for the past couple mornings and then I just had this big unlock around it this morning and just coming back to the practices and really investing in being the witness to the emotions and what’s happening in the mind, the stories and the narratives we tell ourselves.

And I experienced that resistance all the time, and if I can create a little bit of space to be present with it, then like there is an unlock that happens where I can step into the ease place with more ease, so-to-speak, because I’m being present with that intense feeling.

Mark MacLeod:

Well, Tonya, there’s so much more I could ask. I loved the conversation. Thank you so much. I hope we see each other in person. I hope we practice together.

Tonya Papanikolov:

Me too. I’m planting those seeds for September. Yeah, we’ll be back then. Thank you so much for having me. I loved chatting with you.

Mark MacLeod:

Thank you.

Hey, thanks for listening to the Startup CEO Show. If you’d like to connect with me, be sure to visit my website at markmacLeod.me, or follow me on LinkedIn at The Mark MacLeod, or X account @markmacleod_, and if you want to tune in again next week, be sure to subscribe on YouTube, Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. We’ll see you next time!